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Kajamaz

Why I quit battle forge, and why I miss it.

20 posts in this topic

Hello,

I wanted to make a post about the love hate relationship I had with this game, why me and my friends played for a while, then quit, then came back, then quit for good. We wanted to come back again a while ago but only found out the game was shut down :(

I want to start off with why I loved the game. I am a HUGE card game player, I played yugioh and magic competitively, and played vanguard for a while too. My favorite game genres are openworld rpgs and RTS games, so battleforge was amazing when I hopped in. I loved it, the strategies were crazy, the amount of fun I had was phenominal, but there were drawbacks.

#1 Reason Why I quit is because of the stupid card leveling system. Now I remember the vote a year ago and it really makes me not want to come back and play battleforge reborn. I'm sure the card leveling system is the SOLE REASON THIS GAME FAILED AND SHUT DOWN. Many games come off as P2W, battleforges card system is basically like any other card game in the world, it is p2w for real, but at the same time I felt it was sort of balanced like any card game. You could find strategies even with the weakest cards and win purely on skill. But the card leveling system creates a competitive barrier that I have NOT SEEN in ANY OTHER GAME EVER. Games can have a single barrier, maybe a skill curve, maybe a p2w barrier for new players and continuous players alike, but battleforge reborns card leveling system created  two barriers for players. Not only do players have to obtain good cards to play competitivly, but they ALSO have to grind endless hours to level up a card, otherwise you will 100% lose EVERY game regardless of skill level if someones creatures are a higher level than you. I hate single player, I REFUSE to do the campaign. I LOVED PVP, and had so much fun against people who had the same card level as me. The card level system ruins the balance of the game.

To fix it, I suggest card leveling remain a thing, and campaign should give you coins to earn when you beat it, to spend on new packs and cards. I think that is fair, The more you grind campaign, the stronger creatures you have so single player is easier and earning coins from it is easy.

BUT if you want to fix it, make it so that card levels arent included in ranked pvp. You CANNOT have two barriers stopping new players from facing other players. Look at magic the gathering, or yugioh, or any other card game. If they had a leveling system, NO ONE WOULD PLAY.

#2 The daily rewards given to a player is miniscule, you could barely buy packs, even the 1 coin packs you get like... two a day. That was barely anything. I had to beg for cards, and hope to RNJesus as well as stupid trial pay surveys to get some cards I wanted. Fix this... Increase the rewards a little or do what I advised on single player.

Otherwise, this was the best RTS i've played in my life, considering i've done everything from age of empires, dawn of war, starwars, empire earth, warcraft, starcraft, stronghold crusader, etc..

Developers, please read through this, and think about it. I don't want this game to fail again, and I don't want that stupid level barrier. There should be a ranked pvp OPTION to have card levels.

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I dont think that would be possible...

And for all of us who like to PVE to grind a good deck to start PVPing, PVE would become useless to PVPers resulting in tons of players not playing as much PVE...

 

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Posted (edited)

Aka you quit because the game had a progression system...
It´s been discussed before in multiple topics as to why the progression system should be removed or stay, and most of the ppl seem to want it to stay, so it´s gonna stay.

 

The game would die even faster if we didn´t ahve a progression system, as progression is smthg that keeps many players hooked. You are one of the few who don´t seem to think so for some reason and I don´t see why.


Also, regarding the progression, it seems you need to read this:

There´s gonna be a daily quest system and there will be playtime rewards.

Edited by Shotty

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I can agree with the point that card leveling, and upgrades did affect new players (in PVP atleast) badly, but yet again don't think it was the main reason. Usually new players don't just play PVP, and if that ever happens; they will play against some near their level/cards.

The game was not active, and died because of the pretty much no-updates they had coming. 

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I think Watcher thoughts are correct...

First of all Battleforge shares very little with other TCG or RTS games. Don't know if you all agree, but I'd say Battleforge has far more in common with chess then with traditional TCG or RTS games...

Unlike TCG games there's no lucky factor in Battleforge, and that puts Battleforge at huge distance from traditional TCG games

Unlike RTS games, in Battleforge there's not a fixed scheme to achive victory. In RTS games victory is usually achived by gather resources, build and armada and strike enemy forces (99% always done in that order) 

But on the other side, in RTS games each players start with same army which doesn't happen in Battleforge: each player got access to a different sets of cards and upgrades based on the time he spent grinding the system

So if we talk about PVP "rank" and we aim to see a fighting on equal terms (and the winner would aumatically be the more skilled player), each player should start a PVP match using a deck built out of the same set of cards.

So why this doesn't happen?

Any TCG game producer (any MMOG producer) knows very well that grinders are far more the PVPers and because of that can't design a commercial game for PVPers only. In any game, grinding to get stronger equipment, higher level, better deck allows grinders to play PVP and take advantage of a "skill"  that shouldn't be taken as a PVP skill: grinding 

In the end, why, in a NON commercial game where everything looks balanced, a player should match up another one with a stronger deck? Would be like playing chess with 2 queens or Starcraft with double starting units...

I admit it could be late, or simply require too much effort to make such changes, but definitively they make sense

 

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Ok i can understand the frustration with the card levelling but as Sykole has said most players play the game for the campaign and the story and also to obtain better cards and then unlock packs and trade. Its not just install play and suddenly have an amazing deck for no reason. In all honesty i prefer it this way as if you play a game and you can get the best of the best to fast the game becomes boring as what is there left to do yea i can play and win but i have no goal such as ooowww i would love to get some more of X to upgrade it that would be sweet.

 

In the end you can never create a game that appeals to everyone but i think the way they are rebuilding this game speaks volumes to the dedication to the original that had so many fans.

 

Most work i have done all day haha

Edited by Phoenix1664

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From what I see, almost all your problems are the result of F2P version of Battleforge. People that have started playing when it was B2P didn't have problems with cards (if they could manage their BFP in proper way). I really enjoy card leveling system because a 80lvl deck (yup, 80lvl not 120lvl) was only possible if you were a real veteran in either PvE Experts map or PvP ranked system, since during that times, tokens were available only in PvP. 

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I would like it if there was a way to do competitive without levels, so its a perfectly leveled playing field. Maybe add an option tag and a seperate competitive pool. Literally. NO rts has a level system for the units, I LOVE this game, and this is the ONLY thing that made me and my friends leave, and I know this gave the game a lower rating, and i've seen COUNTLESS reviews saying this ruined the game on youtube when it came out. I'm not alone. The reason those people aren't monitoring this reborn project is because they agreed and left the game a while ago, and probably dont know this existed.

I wish there was just a seperate LEVELED compeitive play. Or maybe custom games with disabled card level option.

You dont get your cards and an amazing deck instantly, you get them over time through trade, not sure what you meant pheonix. 

No one has yet to explain why the card level system is necessary. Every compeitive RTS i've ever played from supreme commander, stronghold, age of empires, empire earth, starcraft, warcraft, everyone starts with a level playing field. Those games are still alive, this one is not, for this reason. Not because of lack of updates, I refuse to believe that, its because the system is broken. Age of empires hasn't been updated in a decade, neither has warcraft 3, its still alive...

Someone said this is like chess... in chess I love playing it because EVERYONE has a level playing field. battleforge is like if everyone played a MTG version of chess where they an customize their board and introduce new pieces.

I seriously dont think me, my friends, or my clan, will come back if theres no ability to have a level playing field. Its not competitive.

I REFUSE to grind the single player, I don't like it, I just want to face other people. 

If you guys really have such a hard on for progression, the reason of its demise, then i suggest allowing for card levels from doing multiplayer then, not just single player. You need to solve this. You're missing a huge demographic, and ruining it for ANY new players to join. Not only to veterans have better skill, they have far better leveled up cards. New players become flustered, and quit. People like me just want a fair fight, each with their own deck, battle of the skill.

Otherwise, I refuse to play a level grind game that forces you to do single player for HUNDREDS OF HOURS grinding the same boring mission to have fun and even have a chance against other players.

 

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34 minutes ago, Kajamaz said:

Otherwise, I refuse to play a level grind game that forces you to do single player for HUNDREDS OF HOURS grinding the same boring mission to have fun and even have a chance against other players.

 

Either you quit BF really early, or you simply never knew the Token mechanic existed.
In BF there are so called "Battlegrounds" on those "Battlegrounds" you play on a randomly generated map vs Twilight/Bandits/Lost Souls and the goal is to clear the map from opponents. Once cleared, you earn tokens, you can use those Tokens to upgrade any card of your likeing as long as you owned tha appropriate amount of Tokens.
Those Tokens were also buyable with BFP, making upgrading easy as pie. Idk if this will still be an option in SkylordsReborn tho.

If you are worried about gaining BFP only in PvE, don´t worry, there will be PvP quests AND playtime rewards for both PvE and PvP.

In case you have anymore questions, I linked 2 topics. Those should cover everything you could ever want to know about this situation.

(Everything I said above is to be taken with caution as I´m not a staff member and thus might be wrong on some parts)

Edited by Shotty

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No one adds content to chess game, however it's played by milions of people.

Battleforge has far more potential in its DNA then games like chess or battlecraft.

an F2P game which anyone can play on mlutiple servers. There could be a World ranking system based on statistics recived by registered (authorized servers) all ruled by masters servers that control servers used to match up.

In my opnion, Battleforge is far more PVP oriented game then PVE: it has PVP in its DNA.

 

Edited by Riccardo Sarti

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Give everything for free without having to grind and people get bored.

People get bored after a while and leave the game.

People leave the game and the game dies (again)

 

It's simple imo

 

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13 minutes ago, Neox said:

Give everything for free without having to grind and people get bored.

People get bored after a while and leave the game.

People leave the game and the game dies (again)

 

It's simple imo

 


Give everything for free without having to grind and people can start playing PvP like they used to.

See it's not that simple. There are different motivations to play SR and they are heavily dependant on if you were a PVE- or PVP player. BF was more than just grinding and collecting, for the PvP enthusiasts the collecting part was nothing more than a paywall they had to jump over, while it was BF's essence for others. That's why i'm glad SR is moving to a middleground where the grind is reduced.

 

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3 hours ago, SunWu II. said:


Give everything for free without having to grind and people can start playing PvP like they used to.

See it's not that simple. There are different motivations to play SR and they are heavily dependant on if you were a PVE- or PVP player. BF was more than just grinding and collecting, for the PvP enthusiasts the collecting part was nothing more than a paywall they had to jump over, while it was BF's essence for others. That's why i'm glad SR is moving to a middleground where the grind is reduced.

 

But the thing is theyre not sure if they will be able to add new content so if you start pvp it will be the same forever, I myself started out as a PVE player and still like it so I get people are not thrilled to have to grind again.

But wouldn't it get boring after a few months?

Just my two cents on the matter, maybe you really dont mind the pvp always being somewhat the same

I like PVP too I just don't know if I could do it without new cards and new strategies being added, but again maybe they will be able to add new content they don't know yet.

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1. The old system P2W. You are correct about that

IMO the real reason that battle forge died was because every barrier in the game revolved around of much bfp you could spend. I'm not saying that the player who had the most bfp would win the game as skill was clearly the primary factor in pvp matches, but card upgrades and all of the best cards could be bought for bfp. A new player would see that he would need to spend 100 - 200$ to get all the cards that the "pros" were using and then pay even ore to upgrade them. It was actually a blessing that a progression system existed that allowed players to get card upgrades by playing levels or rPVE (random pve matches). This allowed players that escaped the P2W barrier to upgrade their cards in PVE matches. 

2. P2W games always fail in time. BF lasted 4 years which is honestly a long time for a game so P2W.

Every P2W MMO fails eventually. If you look at the 10 ten most popular online games. League of Legends, Dota2, Smite, Counterstrike, Minecraft, Battle field 4, Wow, ect..., They all are not pay to win. Although some of them have a singular competitive feature that is arguably P2W, they always allowed a way to compensate for this with time. Time spent, or skill is the primary factor in determining who wins in each one of these games.At the start, Battle Forge had NO SYSTEM for a player to earn BFP's. I know i said it was possible for a player to get cards without paying money for the game but this was not an intended mechanic. Originally the only way for a player to get their first BFP points were to get them from another player. This was only possible through trading gold for BF points (against terms and conditions of the game). Or by selling a card that EVERYONE already had. After that initial BFP set it was theoretically possible to trade up till you had a completed deck. Myself and many other players did this and ended up with 100's of dollars worth of cards. However, this was more of an exploit than anything, as new BFP's only entered the system if players payed for them. Later EA recognized this and gave each player 1 bfp per day. This is honestly their biggest mistake as it caused the value of BFP's to go down and increased the prices of cards to point where new players could not buy them. I remember when lost reavers cost 21 bfp's then they jumped to 60. Meanwhile many cards became instantly worthless because they were in the new F2P deck (3bfp card booster). To solve this problem there most be a pay currency and a f2p currency, fixed market prices or no pay currency. Note that every game listed in the top 10 has one of these and BF didn't.

3.The need for PVE progression is NOT optional.

If your primary problem was that this system was a PVE only mechanic think about how much worse it would be if this was a PVP only mechanic and new players (with arguably bad cards and no upgrades) were forced to fight experienced to P2W players in order to upgrade their cards. This would require them to loose over and over in order to gain any sort of head way. Think about a MMO where new lvl 1 players have to fight lvl 50 or lvl 100 players to gain levels. Also think of a player who only likes PVE and is then forced to play PVP in order to progress. A PVP only biased progression system has no room for such players.

4. New system solves all problems (theoretically) 

BFP's can no longer be bought (P2W aspect gone). Instead, BFP's are only gained by the quest system which basically revolves around play time (play x ma, do x). This a singular barrier that all players must walk through. As you have stated it is important that there is not too many primary barriers keeping new players out.  New players now simply play the game and get rewarded. It's a system that puts everyone on the same foot and is in that sense fair. Also it allows new players to enter competitive PVP by a non punishing PVE method or the Face + Wall = Win method if they so desire (=.

Edited by Draknoron

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First up, I'm someone who now has far less time and far more money than I did when I originally played BF, so I'm as against play2win, letting folks with no jobs or family grind 20 hours a day to get upgrade3 charge3 decks in the first week as they are against me spending a few hundred to buy it all. I guess the short answer is you can't please everyone, we all want to have things the way that best affects them, but I'm really believe that this is one of the best options.

Think about it itthpugh, the main points of contention are fairly linked, people who want progression are generally PvE players, those who want it all off the bat mostly PvP (not a slur, just the way the 2 game modes generally work).

Therefore I agree with the OP somewhat, though I'd be inclined to take it the other way and make all cards in PvP automatically be lvl3. This is along the lines of Guild Wars (the first one) where everyone in PvP had max level gear, but had to unlock the skills they want to use. And GW1 is probably the best PvP experience I ever had, it really did come down to who was the best player, no other factors.

A big part of why I never played PvP in BF was that I never had a deck lvl higher than 100 or so, which probably Would've been good enough but I knew it put me at a disadvatage. If we had to grind to earn the BFP to unlock cards but then had them at the same level as everyone else, that would probably encourage more players.

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37 minutes ago, Archeon said:

First up, I'm someone who now has far less time and far more money than I did when I originally played BF, so I'm as against play2win, letting folks with no jobs or family grind 20 hours a day to get upgrade3 charge3 decks in the first week as they are against me spending a few hundred to buy it all. I guess the short answer is you can't please everyone, we all want to have things the way that best affects them, but I'm really believe that this is one of the best options.

I am sure its stated a million times already, but once again:

You !CAN NOT! earn any in game advantages with real money!!! Not even when you pay a ridiculous high price or get something really small...

When any of this happens, EA will most likely shut down the project immediately. Which would mean you payed a few hundred euro's to play the game for a really short time, and ruïne it for everyone...

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1 hour ago, SilenceKiller99 said:

I am sure its stated a million times already, but once again:

You !CAN NOT! earn any in game advantages with real money!!! Not even when you pay a ridiculous high price or get something really small...

When any of this happens, EA will most likely shut down the project immediately. Which would mean you payed a few hundred euro's to play the game for a really short time, and ruïne it for everyone...

I think you didn't get Archeon's point at all... he just stated "aged" players (at least the ones with a work and a familiy) haven't time to play ton of hours to get stuff needed to be competitive in PVP. And basically there wouldn't be any need to do it, because any PVP players would agreee to have all cards upgraded to lvl 3 when doing PVP. So, treating PVP and PVE differently would be the best way to satisfay both kind of players and get more players involved in each type of game

However all major stuff has already been developed and throws this change in game, before release, could be simply impossible....

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2 hours ago, Riccardo Sarti said:

 And basically there wouldn't be any need to do it, because any PVP players would agreee to have all cards upgraded to lvl 3 when doing PVP. So, treating PVP and PVE differently would be the best way to satisfay both kind of players and get more players involved in each type of game

However all major stuff has already been developed and throws this change in game, before release, could be simply impossible....


I don´t think you read the threads I linked, many players, even the pvp kind, actually liked the upgrade system and want it to stay(as stated multiple times in the threads I linked).
 

 

2 hours ago, Riccardo Sarti said:

I think you didn't get Archeon's point at all... he just stated "aged" players (at least the ones with a work and a familiy) haven't time to play ton of hours to get stuff needed to be competitive in PVP.

If you read the part SilenceKiller quoted, yes, it makes alot of sense.  Archeon phrased what he said in such a way that it seems like he wants upgrades to stay, but make grinding skipable by paying (atleast that´s what I got from his wording). So @SilenceKiller99 ´s point is perfectly valid, since as he states, this project would most likely be closed within days when ingame content is purchasable with real money.

 

 

5 hours ago, Archeon said:

First up, I'm someone who now has far less time and far more money than I did when I originally played BF, so I'm as against play2win, letting folks with no jobs or family grind 20 hours a day to get upgrade3 charge3 decks in the first week as they are against me spending a few hundred to buy it all. I guess the short answer is you can't please everyone, we all want to have things the way that best affects them, but I'm really believe that this is one of the best options.

Think about it itthpugh, the main points of contention are fairly linked, people who want progression are generally PvE players, those who want it all off the bat mostly PvP (not a slur, just the way the 2 game modes generally work).

Therefore I agree with the OP somewhat, though I'd be inclined to take it the other way and make all cards in PvP automatically be lvl3. This is along the lines of Guild Wars (the first one) where everyone in PvP had max level gear, but had to unlock the skills they want to use. And GW1 is probably the best PvP experience I ever had, it really did come down to who was the best player, no other factors.

"you can´t please everyone" yeah, that´s true.

I also agree with the general way you compared PvP and PvE players.

The problem with all cards being at max in pvp is following : It´d either keep the charge system like it was to, and you´d have to upgrade cards to get charges anyways (and tbh, charges>Upgrades most of the time), OR charges would also be free for PvP, which imo would just be insane as that wouldn´t only influence PvP but also PvE due to the influence it´d have on the market.

But to quote Fiki   from the "Removing Upgrade System from PvP" thread I linked (page 4 first post):  "We're not removing any core game features at this point."

 

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Ok, seems I've been a little misunderstood, I am well aware of the limits of any money changing hands in the game and am firmly against it, as I've stated a few times on here (I've been criticised for being too defensive of this rule in the past) and I'd like to keep the game as risk free as possible. The point I was making there is that there are lots of different types of gamers, none of whom want to feel like they're being disadvantaged, and that while you can link to threads where people want to grind their pvp decks, there are at least as many who want to jump in on a level playing field rather than be way behind the curve 2 weeks in.

What I'm suggesting, instead of "well I like it this way, and so do these people, so it should be this way" is an option that may make more people happy than some other options and one that I have seen and experienced as being a successful model. I loved the PvE, so if I'm doomed to be automatically outclassed in PvP I'll just not play that and stick to the part of the game that will stay fun for me.

Of course, I know that I'm generalising, and that the proposal isn't simple to implement, and that there will still be unhappy people, so if the devs don't believe it to be worthwhile then so be it, I trust that they want the best for the project and the game, just like I do.

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2 hours ago, Archeon said:

What I'm suggesting, instead of "well I like it this way, and so do these people, so it should be this way" is an option that may make more people happy than some other options and one that I have seen and experienced as being a successful model. I loved the PvE, so if I'm doomed to be automatically outclassed in PvP I'll just not play that and stick to the part of the game that will stay fun for me.

Of course, I know that I'm generalising, and that the proposal isn't simple to implement, and that there will still be unhappy people, so if the devs don't believe it to be worthwhile then so be it, I trust that they want the best for the project and the game, just like I do.

let me quote myself here. from this exact same topic.

6 hours ago, Shotty said:

But to quote Fiki   from the "Removing Upgrade System from PvP" thread I linked (page 4 first post):  "We're not removing any core game features at this point."

If you are curious about other ppls thoughts on the matter, please read the Forum thread "removing Upgrade System from PvP" since that´s basicly your suggestion.

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