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Draknoron

three elemement splash decks in pvp

5 posts in this topic

When I was playing this game a long time ago, I used to use a third element in my shadow/frost deck. I would go shadow T1 work my way through T2 and then add fire or nature in T3 depending on what deck I brought. Although the primary reason for this is that I didn't have many good T3 cards (I was a poor boy), I have found that it work well and there arn't a lot of double affinity required t3 cards anyway. It seems to me that adding a third element just expands your t3 options very well as there are a lot of good cards that only require a single affinity. E.G silverwind lancers, old sunreavers, disenchant..ECT.  So a guess my question is, why did I never see other people doing this? What are the disadvantages? Maby I just needed to get out more.

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It's true that a different T3 improves available cards to use, but... considering you don't mostly want that many T3 cards in your deck to leave space for strong T1/T2. 

Of course if you get T3, you will surprise your opponent with the combination, but you still need a few things for most T3 - a good siege unit, something tanky, an L/XL counter or an element specific spell... the T3 cards with 2 same-orb requirements are very often good enough for that, and in splash decks, having one extra color mostly seems enough. I hardly ever saw it in PvP, but hey - the more you break the meta, the more fun can come out of it :) 

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The main reasons lost souls players didn't splash to fire or nature were cultist masters (really strong) and timeless one (really, really strong). Fire/nature doesn't splash because it needs an XL counter like giant slayer or fathom lord. Fire/frost also has an XL-counter problem when splashing shadow or nature (also double frost = timeless one). Double nature / double frost beats any T3 splash in a stonekin deck, too.

Add to that the disadvantage of being stuck with an useless orb when losing the T1- or T2 orb while being T3.

Still there are two decks where splashing to a 3rd colour is considered professional: Shadow/nature and Bandits. Both rather offensive decks wich can profit from grigori and shieldbuildings defensive capabilities.

The popularity of splashing to a 3rd colour was always influenced by certain buffs or nerfs, in the end some cards like timeless one became so strong there was no alternative.

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3 hours ago, Draknoron said:

When I was playing this game a long time ago, I used to use a third element in my shadow/frost deck. I would go shadow T1 work my way through T2 and then add fire or nature in T3 depending on what deck I brought. Although the primary reason for this is that I didn't have many good T3 cards (I was a poor boy), I have found that it work well and there arn't a lot of double affinity required t3 cards anyway. It seems to me that adding a third element just expands your t3 options very well as there are a lot of good cards that only require a single affinity. E.G silverwind lancers, old sunreavers, disenchant..ECT.  So a guess my question is, why did I never see other people doing this? What are the disadvantages? Maby I just needed to get out more.

If I may direct you to my deckbuilding guide (still in progress) I believe I dedicated a long section to answering that question. You might also find all sorts of other PvP info, if you're interested.

 

 

TL;DR

First, with a shadow frost deck, there is really no need to splash. IMO, 2 frost orbs and one anything is already a really strong combo. Brannoc, silverwind lancers, shield building, tremors, and timeless one are 5 of the best t3 cards in the game (especially considering strength-to-bfp ratio), and you haven't even touched on another orb. Grigori and ashbne pyro are also great cards, so with 1 shadow and 2 frost, you have 7 fantastic cards to choose from--which is way more than you need in t3. Double shadow t3 doesn't have a TON of good cards, but both frenetic assault and cultist master are quite strong, and if you don't have a lot of slots for t3, cultist master + evocutator's woe is a super strong t3 combo.

 

In general, I believe the disadvantages of splashing 3 different orbs outweigh the advantages--although there are some exceptions, and I can list some examples from @Aragorn's deck to show you why I think it's viable in his situation. The main advantage of splashing is that it gives you diversity. Since 3 t3 cards is the magic number for most decks (depending on playstyle, but I think it's a good rule of thumb for beginners), even sticking just to one faction, usually you'll have more t3 cards that you want, that don't fit in your deck. Additionally, in t3 things start to get a little bit broken, so crazy combos aren't as powerful in that stage of the game (unless they're REALLY crazy, but again, not really possible with just 3 cards).

The correct cards to use depend on your deck, but you are right: usually, cards that require 2 faction-specific orbs are generally stronger and more expensive than those that only require one. (The most extreme example is probably fire dancer vs fire stalker). Cards like giant slayer, fathom lord, timeless one, cultist master, and tremor are all among the best t3 cards in the game. There are, of course, really good cards that only require one orb--I'm just making a generalization. Since you usually don't have a ton of space for t3, I think it makes sense to choose stronger cards from a more limited pool, than weaker ones from a larger pool.

Additionally, if you play an aggressive deck (or more accurately, one without a frost splash), you gain an additional advantage my making your first and third orbs the same faction. I used to play fire nature shadow, which has some really, really strong combos. For one, an XL unit (soulhunter) or ashbones are GREAT with the spell support from nature. Additionally, sandstorm is an instant base nuke. Swamp drake (esp with roots) adequately covers the XL weakness, and swamp drakes are also very annoying for most factions to deal with. But you see, we've spent 4 cards in t3 already, and we really need to add drones or shadow insect to cover our L counter and give us a swift. So 5 cards, all super aggressive. Basically no other faction can survive an attack from those combos at high power levels. The problem is that other factions don't need to, because this deck doesn't have great defense. So if I played against pure frost and dropped an orb, they can just come back and drop one of my orbs. Alternatively, the other faction might attack first. Since my deck is geared to attack instead of defend, it's better for me to launch a counter attack and try to kill my opponent before I die. So we enter base trades.

With an aggressive faction, base trades are a huge part of why I suggest keeping your first and third orbs the same. Many games I would take out one of my opponent's orbs and send them to t2. But if they took out my fire orb, I can spawn almost nothing. Maybe like a ghostspears or something. So my opponent is t2 vs my t1/3, and I lose. Switching my shadow orb out for another fire orb really increased my win rate, because then I no longer had to be afraid about base trades. We both go to t2, and then I have more aggressive units so I can take my opponent to t1 before he takes me to t1.

So, rule of thumb: for each orb you have that is the same as your initial orb, base trades favor you more.

 

That said, it's NOT unviable to take 3 different orbs. Especially when you can't afford cards like giant slayer. In my opinion, the best deck to do this is possibly stonekin, because stonekin is very good at defensive play, so base trades are often easily avoidable. Aragorn's deck is nature-frost-shadow. He also plays a pretty minimal t1/t2, so he has 7 or 8 cards in t3. This allows the diversity of options to be more useful, because he has more slots. Additionally, nature t2 spells are very strong in t3--only, nature t3 cards are NOT usually very strong. So usually it's a bad idea to start shadow (many strong t3 cards) but splash a t3 nature, because most of the worth you get comes from t2, and why not play t2 nature if that's what you want? In contrast, starting nature and splashing shadow has much more synergy.

(Still though, in the games I beat him, my strategy often revolved around going t3 just as early as him and then trading for his nature orb).

 

Hope this helps!

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Eirias said:

If I may direct you to my deckbuilding guide (still in progress) I believe I dedicated a long section to answering that question. You might also find all sorts of other PvP info, if you're interested.

 

 

I already read your deck building guide, so i guess I just missed this. Thanks for the TLDR version anyway since I have no desire to confront that massive wall of text again (=.

BTW you are right that the reason I went for a third element was that I didn't have some of the more popular cards. I forgot that this strategy left you almost completely locked out of your deck if they took your first orb. I think that happend to me once in a ranked game back in the day and it wrecked me. 

Edited by Draknoron

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